Preamble

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.]

Oral Answers to Questions — IRAQ (ASSYRIANS).

Mr. Hannah: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give the House any information about our present relations with the Assyrian Christians, especially whether any of them are serving in His Majesty's Forces?

The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): So far as I am aware the situation of the Assyrians is satisfactory. They continue to give most valuable service in the Iraq Levies.

Mr. Hannah: Will it be possible for the Patriarch to live among them again after the war?

Mr. Eden: That is asking me to look rather a long way ahead.

Oral Answers to Questions — FOREIGN SERVICE (REFORM)

Mr. Martin: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, when he expects to introduce legislation in connection with the Foreign Office re-organisation foreshadowed by him last year?

Mr. Eden: I am not able to say when I shall be in a position to ask the House for legislation directed towards the reform of the Foreign Service. My hon. Friend will realise that the reform of the Service, if it is to be effective, must cover a very wide field and I do not think it would be desirable to introduce my proposals piecemeal. The elaboration of these proposals in their detailed application is bound to take much work and a considerable time, but I will give the House a complete picture at the earliest possible moment.

Oral Answers to Questions — UNITED STATES TROOPS, NORTHERN IRELAND (EIRE PROTEST)

Professor Savory: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether his attention has been called to the protest made by the Minister for Eire at Washington against the landing of American troops in Northern Ireland, on the ground that Mr. de Valera had not been consulted; and will he instruct the British Ambassador to represent to the President of the United States of America the British point of view, seeing that the existing boundary between Northern Ireland and Eire was fixed by the Tripartite Agreement of 3rd December, 1925, and accepted and approved by both Houses of the Parliament sitting in Dublin?

Mr. Eden: According to Press reports the Eire Minister to the United States has communicated to the State Department in Washington the substance of a statement by Mr. de Valera on the subject to which my hon. Friend refers. The United States Government are fully aware of the position as regards Northern Ireland, and after consultation with my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs, I do not think that any special communication on the part of His Majesty's Government to the United States Government is required.

Professor Savory: Has the right hon. Gentleman received at the Foreign Office from the High Commissioner for Eire, a copy of the protest which was presented to the United States on 28th January last, according to the "Bulletin of International Affairs" published by the Royal Institute?

Mr. Eden: I have no doubt that protest will have been lodged in the normal way at the Dominions Office. We are, of course, informed. The hon. Gentleman's question was whether I should communicate with the United States Government, and on that I say that the United States Government are well aware of the Irish problem and always have been.

Professor Savory: May I hand this paper to the right hon. Gentleman?

Sir Henry Morris-Jones: Does Eire come under the jurisdiction of the Dominions Office or the Foreign Office?

Mr. Eden: Eire affairs are dealt with by the Dominions Office.

Oral Answers to Questions — ROYAL AIR FORCE.

ENEMY FACTORIES (BOMBING).

Mr. Purbrick: asked the Secretary of State for Air (1) whether he will give the approximate number of aircraft factories and tank factories, respectively, in Germany; and how many of each of these have been bombed;
(2) whether he will give the estimated number of aircraft factories and tank factories, respectively, in France that are being operated for the benefit of Germany; and how many of each of these have been bombed?

The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Air (Captain Harold Balfour): It would not be in the public interest to give information such as that asked for by my hon. Friend, since to do so would reveal to the enemy the extent of our knowledge in important respects and disclose the proportion of our attack which has been directed against particular objectives.

Mr. Purbrick: While accepting that, may I ask whether the knowledge, regarding how many of these places have been bombed, is in the hands of the Air Ministry?

Captain Balfour: My hon. Friend has accepted the answer I gave. He will not expect me to give a further reply to the question he has now put.

Mr. Purbrick: I am only asking whether you have the information.

Captain Balfour: Yes, Sir.

AIRCRAFTMAN'S ARREST.

Mr. A. Edwards: asked the Secretary of State for Air what compensation he proposes to offer in a case of which he has been informed, for illegal sentence whereby an aircraftman was placed under close arrest for nearly 100 days without trial; and what disciplinary action is to be taken against the group captain for his irregular procedure and illegal sentence of this prisoner?

Captain Balfour: I am aware of the case to which the hon. Member refers, but I must not be taken as accepting the facts as stated in the Question. The hon. Member alleges an illegality, the consequences of which might in certain circumstances require determination elsewhere, and it would be improper for me

either to comment on the facts or to appear to prejudge the issues.

Mr. Edwards: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that there is no authority for an officer to sentence a man to more than 14 days, that this man was sentenced for 28 days and has been detained for more than 100 days without trial, and threatened with further detention unless he changed his attitude?

Captain Balfour: I cannot accept the facts as stated by the hon. Member, and if there has been illegality such as he alleges, it may well be that it falls to be determined in some other place. It would not be for me to prejudge that particular issue.

Mr. Edwards: On a point of Order—

Mr. Speaker: The Minister has given the answer that he cannot say more.

Mr. Edwards: I wish to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Motion for the Adjournment.

AERODROME CAMP (CONDITIONS).

Mr. Burke: asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that, on 22nd January, a party of trainees were sent from a Western camp to an Eastern aerodrome, the name of which has been supplied to him, and on arrival found there was no information concerning them and no accommodation for them; that the men slept in an unheated hut; that their equipment was soaked when the hut was flooded; that six men went on guard with only two rifles and that after 10 p.m. there was no further guard until daybreak; that on 28th January the men were asked to take seven days' leave to relieve the congestion at the camp; and if he will made inquiries with a view to improving conditions and discipline at this camp?

Captain Balfour: The information in my possession does not support the statements made by my hon. Friend. Prior notification of the men's arrival was sent to the aerodrome to which they were proceeding and service transport was sent to meet them at the nearest railway station. When the men reached the aerodrome they were temporarily accommodated in a hut equipped with beds and bedding and warmed by two fires which were lit before they arrived. On the second night snow was blown under the door, causing some dampness, but no flooding took place.


Although the unit is full, there is no overcrowding, and the men were sent on leave not to relieve congestion, but in conformity with the usual practice of granting a period of leave on completion of a course. The guard of six men referred to is not the aerodrome guard, but the guard provided at a house, situated some miles from the aerodrome, which was requisitioned for the purpose of billeting airmen, and is now unoccupied after having been partially destroyed by fire. The guard is on duty for 24 hours a day.

Mr. Burke: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman has admitted that these people were sleeping in damp huts. It is true that there were stoves there but no fuel to light a fire; that while transport was provided, it was only after these people had arrived at the station and telephoned for it and that the transfer papers were not collected for four days after they had been there. Is it not strange that men should be moved from the West of England to an aerodrome in the East, and when they get there should be sent back to the West on leave, and further—

Mr. Speaker: Mr. Garro Jones.

PASSES (SECURITY).

Mr. Garro Jones: asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that a recent Air Council instruction, printing a list of about 3,000 Air Force passes and entry permits, which have been lost, and ordering sentries and others not to admit a person presenting one of these specified passes, is causing concern to those who have to act upon it; and whether he will make it clear to what extent sentries are to detain pass-holders while satisfying themselves that the proffered pass is not among the 3,000 which are cancelled?

Captain Balfour: Particulars of lost passes and similar documents are circulated to those concerned from time to time in order to prevent their misuse by unauthorised persons. The list is confidential and it would not be in the public interest to disclose the precise measures taken to prevent impersonation. I am advised that in practice no difficulty arises in complying with the instructions issued.

Mr. Garro Jones: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman really think it

satisfactory that while 3,000 lost passes are in circulation this list should merely be circulated to sentries and others, so that when passes are presented it is impossible to say whether they are valid or not, without looking through a list of 3,000 cancelled passes. Is there no common sense left in the Security Department of the Air Ministry?

Captain Balfour: Naturally when this Question was put down I went very fully into this subject. Of the list of 3,000, only a very small percentage are passes. The hon. Member would not expect me to give exact figures. The remainder are forms which are accepted as sufficient to allow entry and which carry the photograph of the holder. It is when the photograph does not tally with the man who has presented this form or pass, or alternatively, when it looks as if the pass had been tampered with, that the sentry has cause to look at the list. Therefore, the hon. Gentleman is wrong when he says that a list of 3,000 has to be gone through; it is only in a very small percentage of cases that any question arises.

Mr. Garro Jones: I beg to give notice that, having regard to the fact that I have information to the contrary to what the hon. and gallant Gentleman has stated, I propose to bring this matter to the attention of the House at the earliest opportunity.

AERODROME CONTRACTS.

Mr. Simmonds: asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will state broadly the considerations governing the allocation of Air Ministry contracts for the construction of aerodromes at the present time?

Captain Balfour: In general, contracts are allocated after competitive tendering, the lowest tender being accepted wherever possible, having regard to the amount of work already allotted to the firm and to their technical capacity to carry out the particular work in the time required. In cases of extreme urgency, it is sometimes necessary to resort to single tender, the determining consideration in awarding the contract being mainly the proximity to the site of a suitable contractor who has available the organisation, labour and plant required to start the work at once.

Mr. Simmonds: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware of the very wide-


spread feeling that only the largest contractors are considered for these contractors, notwithstanding that smaller contractors are available? Could he explain why it seems that these smaller men do not get a fair share of these contracts?

Captain Balfour: I am aware that that feeling has been expressed on various occasions. The matter has been gone into very fully. I can assure my hon. Friend that the systems aims at giving the small man as good a chance as the others, provided that he can deliver the goods; but it would not be appropriate to go into the whole matter now.

Mr. A. Edwards: Why is it that Messrs. Wimpey have started upon a huge contract in my constituency and not a single small man has been given a chance to tender?

Captain Balfour: If the hon. Member will send me particulars I will look into the matter.

Mr. Edwards: It is happening every day.

Oral Answers to Questions — AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION.

FACTORY (WORKERS' COMPLAINTS).

Mr. Ness Edwards: asked the Minister of Aircraft Production whether he is aware that the works committee of a large aircraft factory recently applied to his Department for the reception of a deputation to complain about the inefficient state of the factory's production; that no reply was sent to the letter of application, with a consequential bad effect upon the morale of the workers; and whether he has any statement to make thereon?

The Minister of Aircraft Production (Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon): A representative of my Ministry recently visited the factory concerned and had a long talk with both the management and the shop stewards. I am glad to be able to inform my hon. Friend that, as a result of this visit, many misunderstandings were cleared and that the first meeting of a newly-formed joint works committee, at which production matters will be considered, was held on Monday of this week, when many matters were discussed between management and men in a spirit of harmony and helpful co-operation.

Mr. Edwards: Is not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that in my letter to the Department I asked why the application of the committee, dated 11th October of last year, had received no reply from his Department; and is he aware that a deputation from this factory is now in this House to draw his attention to complaints about conditions in the factory?

Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: On the first point, the application was sent to the wrong Ministry. I do not make an excuse of that. I very much regret the delay, and I hope that the hon. Member will convey my apologies. On the other point, I do not know anything about it.

Mr. Simmonds: Will my right hon. and gallant Friend give an assurance that these works production committees will not be pressed upon any organisation unless the managerial side and the workers desire it?

Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: I am very much in favour of these committees.

ENGINE FACTORY (INVESTIGATION).

Sir John Mellor: asked the Minister of Aircraft Production whether he will instruct his adviser on public relations to proceed forthwith to an aero-engine factory, which has been identified to him, and report as to whether those employed are satisfied that their services have been, and are being, used efficiently?

Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: As I promised in my reply to a Supplementary Question by my hon. Friend the Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) on 4th February, I have made arrangements for an investigation to be carried out into the factory referred to.

CONTRACTS (SUPERVISION).

Mr. Kirby: asked the Minister of Aircraft Production whether he can make a statement upon the practice of his Department in relation to the supervision of contracts let to private firms, and to the check exercised by his accountants or other representatives upon the costing charges of such contractors in relation to the use of materials, delivery of orders, number of men employed, and the number of hours worked; and whether he is satisfied that contractors cannot be overpaid in relation to the goods supplied, and/or services rendered, at any point during the running period of the contract?

Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: Contract prices are in most cases fixed in the light of estimates by technical and accountant officers of the man-hours, labour costs, quantities and costs of materials and overhead expenses involved; subsequently, checks by accountants control progress payments. The small proportion of contracts paid for on a cost basis is subject to the same general supervision, and, in addition, the ascertained costs are checked by accountants employed by the Department. Progress payments are made to finance contractors on account of and within expenditure actually involved during the running period of the contract. The human element has on a very few occasions resulted in overpayment, which, in every case, it has been possible to set off against further earnings. All claims for progress payments are required to be certified by a responsible representative of the contractor, and are subject to periodical test checks by the Department's accountants.

Mr. Kirby: While I am obliged to the Minister for the reply he has given, might I ask whether before these progress payments are made, a check is made by the Ministry in every case?

Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: Yes, Sir. I think that is true.

Mr. Garro Jones: Why should blunders always be referred to "the human element"?

Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: Because blunders are committed by human beings.

Mr. Moelwyn Hughes: Is the check based upon inspection of the contractors' books during the course of the contract?

Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: Yes, Sir.

Oral Answers to Questions — WAR TRANSPORT.

WESTERN AVENUE EXTENSION.

Mr. Purbrick: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport when it is hoped to complete the extension of the Western Avenue bypassing Uxbridge, as practically no work has been done in this connection for over two years, and a lot of machinery and material is lying on the spot idle?

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (Mr. Noel-Baker): It is hoped to complete this work during the coming summer. Meanwhile I can assure my hon. Friend that the work has been going forward, and that, in consequence the plant on the site has not been idle.

Mr. Purbrick: Is the hon. Member aware that that answer is similar to one which I received on this subject two years ago? Does not the hon. Member think that it is time to finish the work or drop it altogether?

Mr. Noel-Baker: The hon. Member will be aware that this is a very big piece of work, and that a viaduct 580 yards long is being built. That has been the main obstacle to rapid progress, but it is hoped to open one half of the width of the road by August of this year.

Sir Percy Harris: Will the hon Gentleman see that now that we have a new broom at the Department it will sweep along quickly?

Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes, Sir, I take a great interest in the Western Avenue.

RAILWAYMEN, ARMED FORCES (REINSTATEMENT).

Mr. Dobbie: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether the position of railwaymen is safeguarded for reinstatement when they return to civilian life if such railwaymen have voluntarily joined the Armed Forces; and whether such employees' are in the same position for employment when the war is over as those who have been called to the Forces by Act of Parliament?

Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes, Sir. Men who have volunteered for service will be treated in the same way in this respect as men called up for service under the National Service Act, provided that the volunteers enlisted with the consent of the railway company concerned. The case of any man who enlisted without the permission of the company will be considered on its merits on the man's discharge.

DEER CARCASES (RAILWAY TRANSIT).

Mr. Snadden: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he is aware that the


railway company at Killin, Perthshire, refuses to accept deer carcases for transportation by passenger train unless they are skinned, cut up and wrapped in hessian cloth; that such a condition is impossible of execution in view of shortage of labour and the arduous nature of the stalker's task; and will he take steps to avoid waste of wholesome food of which our cities and towns are so much in need?

Mr. Noel-Baker: The restriction placed on the carriage of deer carcases in passenger brake vans was due to the verminous condition of these carcases. I am considering whether some means can be found of overcoming the difficulty.

Oral Answers to Questions — MINISTRY OF INFORMATION.

B.B.C. (PARLIAMENTARY QUESTIONS).

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Minister of Information whether, in view of the widespread changes brought about as a result of the war, he will consider the introduction of legislation to amend the Charter granted to the British Broadcasting Corporation so as to extend the field and permit of a wider range of Parliamentary Questions regarding their programmes and personnel, which are at the present time denied to Members of Parliament by reason of the regulations contained in the existing Charter.

The Minister of Information (Mr. Brendan Bracken): No, Sir.

Mr. De la Bère: Is my right hon. Friend fully aware that the conditions existing in this country to-day are totally different from those existing when the charter of the B.B.C. was granted; and does he not realise that it is important that Members of Parliament should be allowed to inquire into these matters and to know whether there is anything which ought to be corrected? Why should the B.B.C. be put above the law of the land, when it is essential that they should be under proper Parliamentary supervision?

Mr. Bracken: The House will remember that unanimous approval was given to the Government's decision to set up the Board of Governors of the B.B.C. I think that, having come to that decision, the House must, of necessity, leave the Governors to manage their own affairs.

Mr. De la Bère: But is it not desirable that the House should have an opportunity of seeing whether, in the altered conditions of to-day, some modification should be made in the charter? I shall have to raise this matter at the earliest possible opportunity.

PUBLICITY (RESTRICTIONS).

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Minister of Information whether, in view of the existing control of all large channels of publicity, such as the British Broadcasting Corporation and large sections of the Press, for the period of the war, he will give an assurance that the Government will lift the restrictions at the earliest possible moment after the cessation of hostilities?

Mr. Bracken: Peace will bring nothing but unemployment to the censors. But I cannot accept my hon. Friend's assumption that large sections of the Press are under Government control. Except for the restrictions essential to war-time security, the entire Press has kept its traditional freedom, and shows no sign of losing it.

Mr. De la Bère: I agree with what my right hon. Friend said about the Press. I have a very high opinion of the Press. But is my right hon. Friend aware that the B.B.C. has greater power than the Press, and that if it is allowed to go unchecked, this country will be completely ruled by the B.B.C., which is definitely anti-democratic in every way?

Mr. Bracken: I do not think my hon. Friend is expressing the general opinion of the House when he makes that statement. As to the relative merits of the B.B.C. and the Press, I am not going to enter into that question.

Mr. De la Bère: I absolutely stick to what I said.

BROADCASTERS' FEES.

Mr. A. Edwards: asked the Minister of Information whether he is aware that large sums of public money are being paid by the British Broadcasting Corporation to radio stars or their agents, out of proportion to their real value; and whether he will publish a statement giving examples of the higher fees paid?

Mr. Bracken: I am sure that this is a matter which should be left to the Governors of the B.B.C.

Mr. Edwards: Could not the House have some information on this matter? If I put down another Question, would the right hon. Gentleman be able to find out whether £75 was normal pay for a seven-minutes' talk by an alleged star of, say, "Hi, Gang"?

Mr. Bracken: If my hon. Friend will send me the evidence to which he refers, I will, of course, call the attention of the Chairman of the B.B.C. to it, but I really think it would be a mistake for me to get up in the House and answer questions on every detail of the management of the B.B.C.

Mr. Edwards: My Question did not ask for that. I asked whether, if I put down another Question, the Minister will give an answer to a specific point. I cannot recall such a Question as this ever being answered in this House before.

Mr. R. C. Morrison: Is the Minister aware that it is said that the members of the Brains Trust get £20 for attempting to answer very simple questions, and that they are said to record two sessions at the same time and thus draw a fee of ¢40; and does he think that what they give to the public is worth it?

Mr. Bracken: It shows that they have brains.

Mr. Lawson: Is the Minister sure that they have any brains?

Mr. Austin Hopkinson: Is it not the fact that the Brains Trust give more innocent amusement to the people than any other broadcast?

PERIODICALS, MIDDLE EAST (EXPORT SUBSIDY).

Mr. Ness Edwards: asked the Minister of Information what body advises on the subsidising of periodicals to the Middle East; what persons form this body; how are they appointed; what periodicals now receive their support; and at what individual cost?

Miss Rathbone: asked the Minister of Information which Press organs receive subsidies in respect of their Middle East services; and which have received such subsidies within the last six months but have been discontinued?

Mr. Mander: asked the Minister of Information why the issue of "Picture

Post" for 22nd November was banned for export; and what journals, in addition to the "London Illustrated News," the "Sphere," "Illustrated" and "Punch," continue to benefit from the subsidy?

Mr. Bracken: These payments are made to distributors solely to enable them to export at a lower price than would otherwise be possible, the particular British papers and periodicals which are found most useful by our representatives in various parts of the world. The administration of these payments is a part of the ordinary Departmental work of the Ministry. The issue of "Picture Post" for 22nd November was not given subsidised distribution to countries in the Middle East because it was thought unlikely to be helpful to the British cause in this part of the world. I do not think it would be in the national interest for me to specify what, or how many, periodicals are exported abroad in this way, or the cost involved.

B.B.C. (RE-ORGANISATION).

Mr. Viant: asked the Minister of Information whether he is now in a position to state whether the ex-Director-General of the British Broadcasting Corporation, Mr. Ogilvie, resigned voluntarily; or was his resignation compulsory owing to the scheme of reorganisation?

Mr. Bracken: Yes, Sir. I am informed that the Governors of the R.B.C. have for some time past been concerned with regard to the executive control of the organisation. For this reason, they appointed Mr. Robert Foot, some three months ago, as general adviser. Mr. Foot has had important business administrative and organising experience. The Governors discussed these matters fully and came to the unanimous conclusion that the chief executive control of the Corporation under wartime conditions, with the great growth of the organisation and the complexity of the administrative and financial problems arising daily, in addition to those relating to the general programme policy and output, called for different qualities and experience from those suited for peacetime. They felt that the circumstances of to-day were completely different from those which existed at the time of Mr. Ogilvie's appointment in 1938. Their views were conveyed to Mr. Ogilvie, with the result that he


placed his resignation in the hands of the Governors. It was accepted and announced in terms agreed with Mr. Ogilvie.

Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: Would it be true to say then, that the resignation was on a point of principle, as to the constitutional relations between the Director-General and the governing body?

Mr. Bracken: No, Sir. If the hon. Member will read my answer I do not think that he will see that there was any point of constitutional principle.

Major Lyons: Is it the fact that Mr. Ogilvie was asked to resign?

Mr. Bracken: I have given the House the explanation of the Governors of the B.B.C.

Mr. Stephen: What were the special qualifications possessed by Mr. Foot which were not possessed by Mr. Ogilvie?

Mr. Bracken: As I understand it, Mr. Foot has been for nearly 20 years the general manager of one of the most important companies in this country.

Mr. Viant: Are we to take it for granted then, that the new administration, made necessary as the result of the reorganisation, was a task for which Mr. Ogilvie was not suitable?

Miss Rathbone: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask why my Question No. 26 has been left out?

Mr. Speaker: It was replied to.

Miss Rathbone: I did not have any opportunity of asking a Supplementary Question because the Question was taken in the wrong order.

Mr. Speaker: It is not necessary to ask a Supplementary Question.

Sir Percy Harris: If a Question is answered in the wrong place—

Mr. Speaker: Mr. Wootton-Davies.

Oral Answers to Questions — POST OFFICE.

PARCELS AND LETTERS (LOSSES).

Mr. Wootton-Davies: asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the large volume of losses, both of parcels

and letters, in the post; and what steps he has taken to restrict this loss to the public?

The Postmaster-General (Mr. W. S. Morrison): The volume of losses in the post is infinitesimal in relation to the traffic, but has increased as a result of war-time conditions. For a considerable time past the matter has received close attention and all practicable steps towards prevention are being taken by the Post Office. In appropriate cases the co-operation of the railway police and the various local police forces is obtained.

Mr. Wootton-Davies: Can my right hon. Friend give any information as to the actual increase in the losses over the last three years?

Mr. Morrison: I cannot give my hon. Friend comparative figures without notice. The loss already made is something in the nature of 002 per cent.

AIR MAIL LETTERS (ARMED FORCES).

Mr. Tinker: asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the charge of 1s. 3d. per half-ounce in weight of letters by air postage to His Majesty's forces in the Far East is a heavy charge and difficult to meet; and will he consider allowing every serving man there to have one free letter a month as this would give much satisfaction to our men out there?

Mr. W. S. Morrison: As regards the first part of the Question, the air postage on air mail letters from members of His Majesty's Forces in the Far East to this country is payable in local currency and it approximates to the rate of 1s. 3d. a half-ounce for air mail letters sent from this country to the Far East. The charge is admittedly high, but it was necessary to fix it at a high level so as to keep the loads within the limited aircraft capacity available for mails. As regards the second part of the Question, members of the Forces in the Far East are allowed to send letters home free of charge by surface mail without restriction as to number; they may also send home each week by air mail one light-weight letter-card for which the postage in local currency is approximately 3d. After consulting my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air, I regret that I cannot see my way to provide free air mail facilities, even to the limited extent which the hon. Member suggests.

Mr. Tinker: Could not the right hon. Gentleman make some concession, because we must remember that these men are a long way from home, not at their own wish, and something ought to be done to help them in their trouble? I am asking only for some slight concession in some way to show that we feel for them.

Mr. Morrison: I agree with my hon. Friend in asking that everything possible should be done in providing facilities for communications for these men, but what limits any action on my part is the aeroplane capacity which is available. There is no advantage to be gained by encouraging air-mail load which, in fact, cannot be carried by air.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: Does the concession with regard to the free service from the East, apply also to troops in India?

Mr. Morrison: I must have notice of that question but I rather think that the troops in India are under a different condition.

Mr. Hall: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider extending it to India?

Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman feel—

Mr. Speaker: We really must get on.

Oral Answers to Questions — WORKS AND BUILDINGS.

SCRAP METAL COLLECTION, WILTSHIRE.

Sir Percy Hurd: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings, what is the character of the new organisation now working in Wiltshire for the collection of scrap metal; how many are employed and at what cost; and what steps are taken to avoid overlapping with the existing collecting arrangements of the local authorities?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings (Mr. Hicks): Many representations have been received regarding the failure of the existing organisations to collect scrap metal from village and other dumps throughout the country, and the unwillingness of private individuals, as a direct consequence of this, to surrender scrap metal needed for the national effort. My

Noble Friend, therefore, decided to institute county drives to collect this scrap and to recover any scrap from hitherto untapped sources. These drives are being carried out through the Directorate of Demolition and Recovery recently established in my Department. The drive in Wiltshire is one of the first three to be made. The number of staff detached for this special duty is twelve, and the cost, inclusive of travelling and subsistence expenses, will be about £120 a week. Overlapping is avoided by direct contact as a first step with the appropriate officers of the local authorities.

Sir P. Hurd: Would it not have been better to make use of the local organisations which know the countryside well instead of sending down a stranger who has no knowledge whatever?

Mr. Hicks: I had the opportunity of opening the scrap drive in Wiltshire and I attended a meeting in Swindon, at which as many local authorities as possible attended, together with local organisations. Their co-operation was solicited and they generously offered to help us.

IRON RAILINGS, REMOVAL (DAMAGE).

Mr. W. H. Green: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings whether he is aware of the widespread and unnecessary damage being done to private property by contractors engaged by the Government in removing iron railings; and will he take steps to ensure that reasonable care is taken to avoid unnecessary damage to property, particularly that of the poorer class of property?

Mr. Hicks: Complaints of damage have been received and are being investigated. Letters have been issued to all contractors engaged on the taking of railings reminding them of the necessity to exercise proper care and of their responsibility to make good all damage due to their negligence. Every effort will be made to avoid damage to property.

Mr. Green: Is my hon. Friend aware that in this case the local council have made a very strong protest to his Department; that the damage is not negligible but is deliberate and widespread; and, further, that the conditions obtaining in London boroughs have been described as a public scandal by the local Press?


Would it not be more advisable to stop the contractors doing this damage, than to spend money and labour on repairs afterwards?

Mr. Hicks: I am aware of the feelings of the council and of many others who have made representations to my Department, but I would urge the co-operation of Members in this matter as the need for this metal is urgent. Of course, it is not so much trouble to knock down railings as it is to repair, and I know that some damage has been done by the contractors, but they are under an obligation to repair. As for some walls, I can only assume that they were not built by trade unionists, because as soon as the railings were taken away they fell down.

Mr. Green: Is my hon. Friend aware that the damage is largely in the poorer areas, where railings have been demolished by sledge hammers, whereas acetylene burners have been used on the better property?

Mr. Hicks: The quantity of acetylene burners required for this job is not available.

Mr. Stephen: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the many railings round this building?

SIR ALEXANDER GIBB AND PARTNERS.

Mr. Stokes: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings what was the total sum during the year ended 31st December, 1941, or other convenient date, reimbursed to Sir Alexander Gibb and Partners in respect of salaries and expenses of staff quantity surveyors and special consultants over and above the fee of £15,000; and what was the total value of the work allocated to this firm on behalf of the Ministry during the same period?

Mr. Hicks: It is estimated that the expenditure on salaries and expenses of professional and clerical staff and fees of quantity surveyors and sub-consultants from the commencement of the work, December, 1940, until 31st March, 1942, will amount to £358,000. The value of the work carried out under the direction of the firm during the same period is estimated to amount to £8,700,000.

Mr. Austin Hopkinson: Is it not a public scandal that the Director-General of a Department should be a partner in a firm which has contractual relations with that Department and is drawing enormous fees in the course of a year?

Mr. Hicks: I have answered that Question on several occasions when it has been put to me in this House. The Director-General of the Ministry of Works and Buildings is no longer an active member of this firm.

Major Lyons: Was he a member of this firm at the time the contracts, or at any rate a large number of them, were given out?

Mr. Hicks: At the time I have indicated, in 1940, he was not Director-General of the Ministry of Works and Buildings but Controller of Building Materials.

Mr. Hopkinson: Is it not a fact that the Director of Works is a partner in a firm which is in contractual relations with the Minister and that the Director of Standardisation is also in the same position? Will not the hon. Gentleman investigate this matter and stop this crying public scandal?

Mr. Hicks: The hon. Gentleman is asking me another question now. He first asked me whether the Director-General resigned his association with his firm at the time he became a member of the Department. There is another Question on the Paper about the hon. Gentleman's second point.

ARCHITECTS' FEES.

Major Lyons: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings the number of architects to whom, in respect of commissions of his Department, fees or credits for professional work from 1st January, 1941, to date exceed the sum of £10,000, respectively; the number whet.? such emoluments reach or exceed the sum of £20,000; and whether he will indicate the number in each classification where the architect or a member of his firm holds, or has held, a position in the Ministry?

Mr. Hicks: The number of architects commissioned by the Ministry to whom since January, 1941, fees amounting to between £10,000 and £20,000 have become or will become payable is eight,


and the number to whom fees exceeding £20,000 have become or will become payable is two. No officer of the Ministry is connected with any of the firms in the first group. An officer in the Ministry is connected with one firm in the second group.

Major Lyons: Does it not become a gross scandal when, in two cases, sums exceeding £20,000 are paid in fees to architects in one year and when one of the two is an officer in the Department?

Mr. Hicks: I answered that Question last week. The Director of Works receives no salary at all from the Ministry of Works and Buildings.

Major Lyons: He does not want any salary, with £20,000 a year profit.

Mr. Hicks: The answer I gave then is the only answer I can give now. It is a matter of policy. It is a question whether successful firms, individuals from which are invited to join the Ministry, should any longer be entitled to do any work for the Government.

Major Lyons: But in his position as Director of Works is he not able to give out these commissions from which he re-receives £20,000 a year profit? He does not want any salary.

Mr. Hicks: It may not be satisfactory to the hon. and gallant Gentleman.

Mr. Stokes: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the replies, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment at the first available opportunity.

MINISTRY DIRECTORS' EXPENSES.

Major Lyons: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings whether any, and what, sums for expenses are paid to any, and which, directors of the Ministry, both salaried or not, respectively?

Mr. Hicks: The following sums are paid, to cover travelling and subsistence expenses, to the Directors named, none of whom are in receipt of salary:

Director of Demolition and Recovery, £500 a year.
Director of Roofing, £300 a year.
Director of Works, £205 a year.
Director of Cement, £200 a year.


All salaried officers receive reimbursement of their expenses in accordance with Treasury rates.

Major Lyons: Do I understand from that answer that the person who was commissioned to do architectural work, at fees exceeding £20,000 in one year, draws £200 a year as well as expenses?

Mr. Hicks: The Director of Works receives £250 a year for travelling expenses.

Oral Answers to Questions — ROYAL NAVY.

CONTRACTS (SUPERVISION).

Mr. W. A. Robinson: asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is satisfied that his costing system and check upon the activities of private contractors in their relationship with his Department adequately safeguards the Exchequer and taxpayers?

Mr. Kirby: asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can make a statement upon the practice of his Department in relation to the supervision of contracts let to private firms; and to the check exercised by his accountants or other representatives upon the costing charges of such contractors in relation to the use of materials, delivery of orders, number of men employed, and the number of hours worked; and whether he is satisfied that contractors cannot be overpaid in relation to the goods supplied, and/or services rendered, at any point during the running period of the contract?

The Financial Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. George Hall): Wherever possible, contracts are let on a fixed price basis. In such contracts, it is in the interest of the contractor to exercise every economy in the use of labour and material. Nevertheless, costing by means of accountants or technical officers is employed over a very large field in the settlement of these contracts. Where contracts have to be let on the basis of actual cost, an Admiralty representative is normally associated directly with the work, and it is his responsibility to ensure, as far as possible, that only expenditure actually and necessarily incurred, is admitted for payment, and if excessive costs are found to have been incurred, they are disallowed; the Admiralty have also the right to allow only a reduced profit in such cases. In both types of con-


tract, any progress payments made are regulated by the value of the work done and of the materials accumulated.

Mr. Kirby: Will my hon. Friend explain in rather more detail the methods of the Department in regard to the check on progress payments as there is a feeling that more could be done in this direction?

Mr. Hall: I cannot admit that everything possible is not already being done. We are doing what we can to check expenditure to the best of our ability.

Mr. W. A. Robinson: Is the same system applied in checking for the Admiralty from Scapa Flow to Singapore?

Mr. Hall: As far as I know, a similar system is applied.

Mr. Silverman: If the Minister is satisfied that an adequate check is applied, how does he explain the scandals now appearing before the Liverpool courts arising out of the failure to exercise such a check?

Mr. Hall: The percentage of Admiralty work at the place referred to by the hon. Member is very small.

Mr. Kirby: Will my hon. Friend look further into the question? Is he aware that many hon. Members doubt whether a proper check is made and that there is a considerable amount of feeling on this subject outside the House?

Mr. Hall: If the hon. Member would care to submit any cases he has in mind, I know that my right hon. Friend the First Lord and the officers at the Admiralty would be very pleased to see them.

"ARK ROYAL" (SURVIVORS).

Mr. Bellenger: asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether all the survivors of the "Ark Royal" have been returned to this country for rekitting?

Mr. George Hall: No, Sir. Local requirements which could not otherwise be met necessitated the retention on the ship's station of a proportion of the survivors. These were mainly officers and ratings of the Fleet Air Arm.

Mr. Bellenger: Is that proportion a small one, and as quite a large number of these survivors have been returned to this country for rekitting, and thereby enabled

to meet friends and relations, will my hon. Friend do his best to see that the others are returned as soon as possible?

Mr. Hall: I understand that the number is relatively small. Whether these survivors will return to the United Kingdom in the near future will depend upon operation requirements. They are, of course, refitted at their station.

Captain McEwen: Is it in order for an hon. Member to invent English verbs?

MESSRS. T. P. BENNETT AND SON (FEES).

Major Lyons: asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the amount of fees paid or credited to the firm of Messrs. T. P. Bennett and Son during the year 1941 by his Department?

Mr. George Hall: The total fees paid to Messrs. T. P. Bennett and Son by the Admiralty for the calendar year 1941 amounted to £22,242.

Major Lyons: Is the Minister aware that this is the same firm that obtained many thousands of pounds in profits for architectural services to the Ministry of Works and Buildings, that a partner of this firm is Director of Works in that Department and receives £250 a year expenses as Director of Works, and will the Minister take some interest in this, matter, which is a gross public scandal?

Mr. Hall: This firm has been employed by the Admiralty for a considerable number of years and has given every satisfaction.

Major Lyons: So would somebody else.

Mr. Hall: It is better to make use of a firm that one knows.

Major Lyons: Does not the Minister thin it is better to trust one he does not know, when the one he knows works for another Ministry—

Oral Answers to Questions — COLONIAL DEVELOPMENT AND WELFARE SCHEMES.

Mr. Creech Jones: asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any statement will be issued setting out the scheme submitted by the Colonial Governments under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act?

The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Harold Macmillan): A return of schemes made under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act in the period ended 31st March, 1941, was presented to the House on 16th December. Periodical statements regarding the progress made in granting assistance to Colonial Governments under the Act will no doubt be issued in the future, but it is too early to say at what intervals they could most conveniently be produced.

Mr. Creech Jones: Will the Minister publish the schemes submitted by Governments and not those adopted under the Act?

Mr. Macmillan: I will consider that.

Oral Answers to Questions — NORTHERN RHODESIA (COPPERBELT REFORMS).

Mr. Creech Jones: asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what progress has been made in the past six months in implementing the recommendations of the Copperbelt Disturbance Inquiry in Northern Rhodesia; whether further attention has been given to breaking down the colour bar and controlling its extension in the copper belt; and whether the Government have reached a policy in respect to permanent African urban settlement in the copper belt?

Mr. Harold Macmillan: As the answer is of some length, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Mr. Sorensen: Has any progess been made in breaking down the colour bar?

Mr. Macmillan: The answer is a long one and as I say I would prefer to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the reply:

Wages and Conditions of Service.

The recommendations of the Copperbelt Commission in respect of wages and conditions of service were generally accepted and have been put into effect. The labour officers, of whom there are now two on the Copperbelt, are carefully watching the position in regard to efficiency awards and the Governor is satisfied that the system is operating fairly and that an adequate check is being kept on it. The Governor states that he is able to give a

complete assurance that the compound managers have no power to make deductions from the cost of living bonus; no such deductions have been or will be made.

Welfare Work.

The importance of welfare work among women is fully realised and domestic science classes were started at Luanshya more than two years ago by the United Missions to the Copperbelt. Excellent work has been done in the teaching of cooking, knitting, handicrafts and hygiene. Similar classes are now being held in the Mindolo compound, near Nkana. A third woman welfare officer is being sent out by the London Committee of the United Missions to the Copperbelt. The managements of all the copper mines have undertaken to do everything possible to encourage the making of flower gardens, and the Rhokana Corporation now gives prizes for the best kept flower gardens in any compound block, although it has not so far been found possible to increase the size of the plots. The whole question, including the provision of allotments, is being further studied by the labour commissioner in consultation with the Agricultural Department. Everything possible is being done to establish shade trees in mine compounds. The Governor is confident that the mine managements can be relied upon to do all in their power to increase the number of shade trees and the forestry officer is helping and advising them.

Industrial Machinery.

The "Elder" system has been reviewed in consultation with representatives of the mining companies with the result that the system has now been accepted at all the mines. At Nkana and Nchanga the Elders will be assisted by boss boys. The new arrangements provide for collaboration with the labour officers and with the district commissioners. Arrangements have also been made for the Elders (now called tribal representatives) and the boss boys to nominate members from among their number to sit on the native urban councils.

Workmen's Compensation.

The legislation providing for improved rates of compensation, referred to in paragraph 35 of the Commission's report, has been enacted. Legislative provision has


also been made for the admission of payments in kind in the assessment of workmen's earnings for compensation purposes.

Stabilisation.

This question is under review and the Governor is considering the possibility of having a complete survey made of the position. This is, however, a time of exceptional activity on the Copperbelt with a consequential expansion in the number of workers which would render the adoption of a detailed policy difficult at this juncture even if the results of a survey were available. Every encouragement is now given to workers to bring their wives with them to the mines.

Extension of opportunities for Africans.

This matter is receiving attention. It may be added that the Governor of Northern Rhodesia has reported that during his recent tour of the Copperbelt he was impressed by (a) the measures being taken to provide recreational facilities for Africans, (b) the attention that is being devoted to the provision of good housing, and (c) the interest being taken in the working of the tribal representative system.

Oral Answers to Questions — WEST INDIES.

BARBADOS (TEACHERS).

Dr. Morgan: asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies how many trained teachers there are in the elementary schools in the island of Barbados; and whether, in view of the evidence given by the Elementary Teachers' Association before the Moyne Commission, 1939, that there were 50 education boards controlling 126 schools, mostly with untrained teachers at meagre salaries or even with honorary teachers doing honorary work for five to six years in the prospective hope of an appointment in the schools, any steps have been taken to rectify the position?

Mr. Harold Macmillan: Up-to-date figures of the total number of trained teachers now in the elementary schools of Barbados are not available in the Colonial Office, and the Governor is being asked to supply this information. I will communicate with my hon. Friend when his reply is received. In reply to the second part of the Question, the whole question of education in Barbados is at present

under consideration by the Governor in consultation with the Comptroller.

Dr. Morgan: Has not this matter been under consideration for the last 10 years?

PRISONERS (TREATMENT).

Dr. Morgan: asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the system in some prisons in the West Indies under which all the prisoners during holidays and week-ends, except for church services, are locked inside their cells, so that the prison warders may have their holidays or leave, still obtains in most islands as it did up to 1939; whether this system is still in vogue in Barbados; whether during such periods the prisoners have any fresh air, or contacts, or adequate attention; and whether any improvements have been made either by increased staff or better alternative arrangements?

Mr. Harold Macmillan: As my hon. Friend was informed in reply to his similar Question on 26th November, inquiries are being made into these matters. I have, however, not yet received the report for which I have asked. When I do so, I will communicate with my hon. Friend.

Dr. Morgan: Having regard to the disgraceful conditions in prison administration in many of these colonies, will something be done to bring about an amelioration?

Mr. Macmillan: It is for that reason that we have asked for a report.

Mr. Edmund Harvey: Will there be an opportunity for consultation with the Prison Commissioners in this country?

Mr. Macmillan: They are represented on the Penal Committee of the Colonial Office, and their advice is continually sought.

Oral Answers to Questions — PRIME MINISTER'S CANCELLED BROADCAST.

Captain Plugge: asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the general disappointment throughout the country and the Empire at the cancellation of his announced broadcast for 22nd January on his visit to America, and of the broadcasting energy lost to the war effort on the broadcasting stations


throughout the world owing to this postponement; and on what date he proposes to make his broadcast to the nation and the Empire?

The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): My right hon. Friend has not made any arrangements for a broadcast on this subject at the present time.

Mr. Leslie Boyce: Is my right hon. Friend aware that those hon. Members who objected to a record being made of the Prime Minister's speech on that occasion were hopelessly out of touch with the sentiments of the nation?

Oral Answers to Questions — CIVIL AVIATION (INTERDEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE).

Mr. Simmonds: asked the Minister without Portfolio what are the names of the members of the Inter-Departmental Committee on Civil Aviation; and whether this Committee has now completed its work?

The Minister without Portfolio (Mr. Arthur Greenwood): The Committee, which sits under the chairmanship of Lieut.-Colonel Sir Francis Shelmerdine, late Director-General of Civil Aviation, is composed of representatives of all the Departments concerned. It would be contrary to the usual practice for me to state the names of the members of such a Committee. The answer to the second part of the Question is in the negative.

Mr. Simmonds: Will my right hon. Friend reconsider the position of this Committer? Is it desirable to have a Departmental Committee investigating a matter of such wide importance, and will he not consider concluding the activities of this Committee and appointing a public Committee that would give more confidence?

Mr. Greenwood: I think the House must await the report which the Committee presents before expressing confidence or otherwise. As a matter of fact, all the members of the Committee have been actually engaged on some aspect of civil aviation, and at this stage I should have thought that very large questions of public policy might arise with which this form of Committee would best be able to deal.

Mr. Garro Jones: When the report is published, shall we know under whose

authority it is issued and who were the members of the Committee, and is it not a fact that the members of the Committee are the same close associates of the Imperial Airways monopoly which made such a mess of civil aviation from the national viewpoint before the war?

Mr. Greenwood: I cannot for one moment accept the statements in the hon. Member's question.

Mr. Maxton: Does the Minister say that it is the usual practice to withhold the names of members of Committees of this description?

Mr. Greenwood: When they are Civil servants it is the usual custom; otherwise they might be put in a difficult position.

Mr. Granville: In view of the fact that most of the civil aviation will be flying on Empire air routes, has the Empire been consulted on this matter?

Mr. Greenwood: Certainly, the Committee was set up with their full approval, and the Dominions Office are represented on it.

Mr. Simmonds: In view of the unhappy nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

Oral Answers to Questions — FOOD SUPPLIES.

BLACK MARKET OPERATIONS.

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he has any further information and has taken any action respecting the usage of car-parks at dog-racing tracks and other places for black market operations; and whether he will publish the number of prosecutions and convictions, respectively, in connection with black market operations?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Major Lloyd George): I have no further information at present to give my hon. Friend regarding the usage of car-parks for black market operations. The total number of prosecutions instituted by the Ministry of Food since the outbreak of war up to 31st December last was 39,927. It would be quite impracticable to distinguish in this large total the number of offences which might be described as black market operations.

Mr. Sorensen: Has the right hon. and gallant Gentleman any information regarding the callings and professions of large numbers of these black market operators?

Major Lloyd George: We have in the case of those who come under our notice, but in order to reply to the hon. Member I should require notice.

Mr. Lipson: Does not my right hon. and gallant Friend think that, in view of the large number of prosecutions that have taken place, a greater deterrent is required?

Major Lloyd George: My hon. Friend must not assume that all of the 39,000 prosecutions to which I have referred are black market prosecutions, as the majority are minor offences, some due to inexperience and shortness of staff. It would be most unfair to the traders of this country to assume that all the prosecutions we have to undertake refer to the black market.

Viscountess Astor: Is it not true that if honest people would stop buying things from the black market, the black market would disappear?

UNRATIONED COMMODITIES.

Sir John Mellor: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware of the inconvenience caused through many retailers declining to sell unrationed commodities, which are in short supply, except to customers of long standing; and whether he will take steps to ensure that persons, who have moved from one district to another, shall be enabled to purchase a fair share of such commodities?

Major Lloyd George: With a view to the distribution of supplies as equitably as possible retailers are authorised to reserve unrationed foods for their registered customers for rationed foods, and I have no reason to suppose that persons who have moved from one district to another are unable to register with retailers in their new districts and thus to obtain a fair proportion of unrationed foods. Moreover the recent additions to the foods rationed on the points system should facilitate purchases by such persons.

Sir J. Mellor: Does not everyone know that this practice exists, and is it not

specially unfair upon those whose work requires them to be mobile?

Major Lloyd George: I am aware of it, and I have said so, but, as my hon. Friend knows, there has been a large increase of goods coming under the Points Rationing Scheme, and, therefore, there should, in general, be no difficulties, with the possible exception of vegetables and fruit. With the extension of the Points Scheme, whatever difficulties there are should be reduced.

Sir J. Mellor: How far does the Minister contemplate extending the Points Scheme?

Major Lloyd George: That is another question. Obviously our purpose is to get distribution as effective as possible, but I would point out that it is not possible to extend the Scheme to all commodities.

VEGETABLES (SMALL SHOPS).

Mr. Simmonds: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that small greengrocers' shops have great difficulty in obtaining supplies of plentiful vegetables, such as carrots; and whether he will take remedial action?

Major Lloyd George: I am not aware of the difficulty referred to by my hon. Friend. If he will give me particulars of any case I will have inquiries made.

Oral Answers to Questions — FACTORY MACHINES (CONTINUOUS WORKING).

Mr. A. Edwards: asked the Minister of Supply whether he has considered the working of a factory in Nottingham whereby machines are used continuously for 168 hours a week; and whether he proposes to put this plan into operation in other factories?

The Minister of Supply (Sir Andrew Duncan): I understand the hon. Member has in mind a scheme which has been worked out by a firm in Nottingham for a carefully-planned system of shift-working. I have received details which he kindly sent me and I will have the system fully examined.

Mr. Higgs: Is the Minister aware that there is insufficient labour to manage existing factories for 48 hours per week, let alone for 168 hours per week?

Oral Answers to Questions — PUBLISHERS' PAPER STOCKS.

Mr. Garro Jones: asked the Minister of Supply whether he is aware that some firms of publishers who own large stocks of paper, are comparatively unaffected by existing ration restrictions; whether any estimate or survey has been made of paper stocks outside the Control, and what is the quantity?

Sir A. Duncan: The quota restriction on the consumption of paper has not hitherto been applied to periodicals relying on their own stocks, but it is being extended to them. The stocks of paper held by the larger publishers are known to the Paper Control. It would not be in the public interest to publish the figures. Information as to stocks held by printers and others outside the Control has not been collected, but the total quantity is estimated to be relatively small.

Mr. Garro Jones: Is it not rather late in the day to discover that some publishers have enormous quantities of paper stocks which they are able to use without regard to the Paper Control, and when will these stocks be brought from private resources into the national pool?

Sir A. Duncan: The existence of these stocks was known. These stocks are, and always have been, in the course of consumption, but the system under which the rationing was made has now been altered.

Viscountess Astor: Is it not a fact that some of the publishers are using their paper to print the most undesirable and filthy books, which can be seen on the bookstalls and are a danger to our young people?

Mr. Garro Jones: asked the Minister of Supply whether he is aware that publishers of more than one periodical who, prior to 22nd November last, had surplus paper from some of their journals, have transferred the surplus to their more prosperous publications and thus stabilised their allotment for these journals at a high figure; and whether he will publish the names of the Committee concerned with the allocation of paper and a list of periodicals, showing the amount of paper consumed in the current licensing period as a percentage of the amount consumed in the proportionate period of 1938–39?

Sir A. Duncan: Until November last publishers were permitted to distribute their rations of paper among their various periodicals at their discretion and as a result a number of periodicals have been closed down entirely. The basis has now been changed, and the basic ration is fixed for each periodical in relation to recent consumption. The Ministry are advised by a committee as to the grant of supplementary rations of paper to particular periodicals from the small quantity of paper held back for this purpose. I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the Committee. There are very many periodicals, however, and I hope the hon. Member will not press me to publish the list of these.

Following is the list:—

Mr. Agnew—Bradbury, Agnew, Ltd.
Mr. Bell—Newsprint Rationing Cornmitee.
Mr. Nisbett—Illustrated Newspapers.
Mr. Raisin—Hultons Press.
Mr. Tingay—George Newnes.
Mr. Wallis—Iliffe's.

Oral Answers to Questions — MINISTRY OF SUPPLY CONTRACTS (SUPERVISION).

Mr. Kirby: asked the Minister of Supply whether he can make a statement upon the practice of his Department, in relation to the supervision of contracts let to private firms, and to the check exercised by his accountants or other representatives upon the costing charges of such contractors in relation to the use of materials, delivery of orders, number of men employed and the number of hours worked; and whether he is satisfied that contractors cannot be overpaid in relation to the goods supplied; and/or services rendered, at any point during the running period of the contract?

Sir A. Duncan: The supervision exercised over the execution of contracts varies according to the form of contract. It is not possible within the limits of a Parliamentary reply to give a detailed description of the various arrangements; but I am satisfied that they are in general adequate to prevent over-payment. Progress payments made during the execution of a contract are limited to a percentage of an agreed maximum price; and under this system even temporary over-payments are rare.

Mr. Kirby: May I ask whether progress payments are made; and will the Ministre also state whether these payments are made on the certificate of the contractor or on that of his Department's officers?

Sir A. Duncan: Investigation takes place all the time.

POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION.

CENTRAL PLANNING AUTHORITY.

The Minister without Portfolio (Mr. Arthur Greenwood): The Government have had under consideration the best means of carrying out their pledge to establish a Central Planning Authority and have reached the following decisions. The existing statutory duties in regard to town and country planning, exercised by the Minister of Health in England and Wales, will be transferred to the Minister of Works and Buildings, whose title will, with His Majesty's approval, be changed to Minister of Works and Planning. The Minister's planning functions will be to guide the formulation by local authorities in England and Wales of town and country planning schemes which will adequately reflect the national policy for urban and rural development. The Ministry will be recognised as the Department which local authorities in England and Wales must consult on the general lines of town and country planning, and it will exercise the powers of the central Government under the Town and Country Planning Acts, including the powers which will be available under forthcoming legislation to give effect to the First Report of the Uthwatt Committee, and it will lay down the general principles to which town and country planning must conform. The Secretary of State for Scotland will be, responsible, as heretofore, for the exercise in Scotland of the functions in regard to planning to be exercised in England and Wales by the Minister of Works and Planning.
It is evident that the work of the Minister of Works and Planning and of the Secretary of State for Scotland will touch upon the work of other Departments of State at very many points. The Minister of Works and Planning and the Secretary of State will, therefore, be assisted by a committee of senior officials representing the Departments concerned. The main functions of this committee will be to ensure that, so far as possible, the national policy of urban and rural

development is carried out as a single and consistent whole. Much of the work of interdepartmental co-ordination will be carried out by means of this committee of officials. Questions which cannot be settled by this committee will be dealt with by a committee of the Ministers concerned, under the chairmanship of the Minister without Portfolio by virtue of his special responsibilities for reconstruction matters generally, and will be settled by them unless reference to the War Cabinet is necessary. The Council of Ministers, the appointment of which was announced on 17th July, 1941, will be dissolved. It will of course be understood that these arrangements do not divest individual Ministers of their responsibility for taking action within the spheres of their respective Departments.
In reaching these decisions, the Government's intention has been to secure the most appropriate development and use of the land of this country, and they believe that by a procedure of this kind the various activities of the Departments concerned in post-war reconstruction, including the speedy provision of houses for those who need them, the redevelopment of devastated areas, the clearance of slums, the relief of overcrowding, the provision of all necessary public services and the general promotion of rural development in the light of a positive policy for the maintenance of a healthy and well-balanced agriculture, can be welded into a single and consistent policy. The Government will review, haling regard to subsequent developments and experience, the objectives stated in paragraph 4 of Section 428 of the Report of the Royal Commission on the Distribution of the Industrial Population, namely:


"(a) Continued and further redevelopment of congested urban areas, where necessary
(b) Decentralisation or dispersal, both of industries and industrial population, from congested areas.
(c) Encouragement of a reasonable balance of industrial development, so far as possible, throughout the various divisions or regions of Great Britain, coupled with the appropriate diversification of industry in each division or region throughout the country."

The Government will study and concert, in the light of the review, the steps that should be taken to reach these objectives.
In furthering their policy for urban and rural development, the Government will seek to avoid measures which would interfere with the overriding aim of raising


the standard of living to the highest possible level. In particular, the Government: (a) Will seek to ensure that fresh development is planned with due regard to the use which can be made of existing capital equipment and existing public services, and will not wantonly countenance the break-up of old and valuable industrial concentrations; (b) Will seek to avoid the diversion of productive agricultural land to other purposes if there is unproductive or less productive land that could reasonably be used for those purposes. The necessary legislation to give effect to these decisions will be introduced at an early date.

Major-General Sir Alfred Knox: Will the right hon. Gentleman state who wrote that essay?

Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: Are we to have a White Paper giving further details?

Mr. Greenwood: A Debate is taking place in another place to-day on the question. But I will consider the question of a White Paper, though the House might prefer a discussion in this Chamber.

Mr. Bossom: Will these matters be carried out by existing local authorities, or is it proposed to start new regional authorities to administer them?

Mr. Greenwood: Until we have arrived at a stage where there is some measure of agreement we shall work through the local authorities.

Mr. Bossom: Is it not a fact that local authorities have already been approached and asked whether they will have matters of this sort handled through larger regional authorities and not through the existing local authorities themselves? Only yesterday I believe that very point was raised in my own division.

Mr. Greenwood: That is a matter of co-operation which depends on agreement.

Viscountess Astor: Have the Government no plans for regional re-organisation?

Mr. Hopkinson: In view of the fact that it is a matter of doubt whether the next generation will live above ground or underground, cannot this proposal be described as flap-doodle from beginning to end.

Sir Francis Fremantle: Is it proposed to appoint an advisory planning committee of people outside who are tremendously interested and concerned and are responsible in these matters, as was the case with the Ministry of Health Advisory Housing Committee?

Mr. Greenwood: As a matter of fact the Minister of Works and Buildings has already got a series of committees covering the whole field of physical reconstruction.

Earl Winterton: Will the right hon. Gentleman make it quite clear that this new arrangement in no way derogates from the existing authority of all three Defence Departments to take land when they require it and erect buildings without reference to any other authority?

Mr. Greenwood: Not only in war time but also in peace time that would be a matter for information. There is no intention to interfere in any respect with those powers but as a matter of courtesy the necessary information would be conveyed to the Departments concerned.

Sir William Davison: Will the right hon. Gentleman expand what he has just said?

Mr. Maxton: The Minister has said that legislation will be introduced forthwith. Is it proposed that operations under the scheme shall be started immediately after the legislation is passed?

Mr. Greenwood: Yes, Sir Legislation will be necessary, I understand, to alter the title of the Ministry of Works and Buildings and also to transfer to the Minister the statutory powers now exercised by the Minister of Health.

Mr. Maxton: Is that all the scope of the legislation?

Mr. Greenwood: I have announced that legislation will be necessary in relation to certain aspects of the Report.

Mr. Logan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the extravagant prices being asked for land required for re-housing in congested areas? Will that be taken into consideration by the Committee?

Mr. Greenwood: The Government has already announced its policy on this matter, and that aspect of the question is now under consideration by the Uthwatt Committee.

Mr. McKinlay: Will the Department of Health in Scotland continue to be the over-riding authority, irrespective of decisions taken by this Ministry?

Mr. Greenwood: This scheme has the whole-hearted approval of the Secretary of State. As regards physical planning, his powers will be as great as those of the Minister in England and Wales, but as regards questions affecting the location of industry and transport, they will have to be decided in co-operation with other Departments.

Mr. McKinlay: May I repeat my question? Will the Department of Health still be the over-riding authority in town and country planning in Scotland, without regard to any desire of the Ministry of Works and Buildings?

Mr. Greenwood: I have already said so. The answer is "Yes. Sir"

BILL PRESENTED.

MINISTERS OF THE CROWN AND HOUSE OF COMMONS DISQUALIFICATION.

"To extend the House of Commons Disqualification (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1941, with Amendments, and to provide for the prospective repeal of the Ministers of the Crown (Emergency Appointments) Act, 1939"; presented by the Prime Minister, supported by Mr. Attlee, Mr. Greenwood, Sir Archibald Sinclair, Mr. Ernest Brown and the Attorney-General; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day, and to be printed. [Bill 15.]

COVENTRY CORPORATION BILL [Lords].

Report presented,—of the Attorney-General on the Bill (pursuant to Standing Order 189); referred to the Committee on the Bill.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (ANTICIPATION).

The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): I beg to move,
That the Debate this day on the Shipping situation on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House be not restricted by the rule against anticipation.
I move this Motion in order that the Debate on the shipping situation shall not be restricted in any way. I think the House would wish that, otherwise the rule against anticipation would restrict the Debate. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for East Renfrew (Major Lloyd) secured first place in the Supply Ballot and has given notice to call attention to the condition of the shipyards on going into Committee of Supply on the Navy Estimates. If the House agrees to this Motion, it will enable a wide Debate to take place to-day, and it will not affect my hon. and gallant Friend's right to move his Amendment at the appropriate time.

Earl Winterton: This is a novel Motion, though I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is a necessary one, but I think someone should make it clear—and it is advisable to do so from this Box—first that this is a procedure which should only be resorted to occasionally, as it involves great hardship on a Member who has been successful in the Ballot, and secondly that it is a debatable Motion and that it would be open to the House to discuss it.

Mr. Attlee: I think the Noble Lord is one of the very few who were Members of the House when a similar Motion was moved some time ago. It is not entirely without precedent.

Question put, and agreed to.

Ordered:
That the Debate this day on the Shipping situation on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House he not restricted by the rule against anticipation.

SECRET SESSION.

Notice taken, that Strangers were present.

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to Standing Order No. 89, put the Question, "That Strangers be ordered to withdraw."

Question agreed to.

Strangers withdrew accordingly.

[The remainder of the Sitting was in Secret Session.]